Another thought on this passage is looking at it through the lens of the culture and time it was written. From that standpoint, Paul isn’t instruction all women everywhere and for all time to be silent in church, but rather he is addressing a specific, disruptive behavior pattern that was taking place in the church at the time (but can be interpreted to fit today’s culture in different ways). So many times, Paul is calling out specific groups for certain behaviors that aren’t necessarily supposed to be directly applied and taken literally for Christians living today, but his words are pointing out the underlying heart attitude, as other women have mentioned already. Just my thoughts.
I agree! Basically we can still have nice clothes, jewelry, etc…just always focus on eternal things over worldly though. As you’ve stated it’s a heart issue. Also, Paul wasn’t saying women couldn’t be leaders. Reread Romans 16, Phoebe was a minister or in some translations Deaconess. He gave a shout out for other women as well!
Okay I didn’t explain myself – I understand my place as ‘Christian woman’ = a husband would be above me. I’m not disobeying God nor am I trying to. I think Kati understood what I meant. It was just confusing for me to read that I shouldn’t wear jewellery and such?
Grace, I think what that is saying isnt not to wear jewelry but to focus your attention on how you present yourself. He is saying that women should be modest and not worry about adorning themselves with gold, pearls and costly attire. Today it might sound like “women should worry about being humble in their attire and dressing within their means. Wear the target cardigan and dont worry about having a Chanel watch, coach purse and jimmy Choo shoes. So often we dress with ulterior motives- to impress others (men and women) or to attract men. These verses are saying that we should have our minds focused elsewhere. That was my take
Hi Grace! I don’t know why my response didn’t post from before but I’ll try it again… I don’t think the passage was saying to not wear jewelry but instead how to present ourselves. We are to be humble in our dress as opposed to flashy, extravagant styles. Basically, in how we might dress for others. Braids back in the day weren’t necessarily the simple ones we do today. One look at medieval hairstyles will have you cringe! ;) but I think the modern day take might look something like this “Dress humbly and within your means. Do not dress to entice or impress others. Do not worry about name brands. Your concerns should not be about the name on your shoes, purse and jewelry but on the name written upon your heart.” That was my take.
I think the jewelry comment was more specific to the time period and culture, but the principle behind it still applies to us today. My Bible’s study notes for verse 9 say, “Not a total ban on the wearing of jewelry or braided hair. Rather, Paul was expressing caution in a society where such things were signs of extravagant luxury and proud personal display.” It’s like the Biblical version of keeping up with the Jones’. We have to remember that the point of gathering together at church services is for worship not showing off with the things we have or the way we look. There is nothing wrong with wearing jewelry or having our hair styled nicely. It’s our motives that matter. If these things become a source of pride then we should do a heart and soul check to get back on the right track focused on God. :-)
i like v.10 better in the message version: “doing something beautiful for God and becoming beautiful doing it.” like mary of bethany, who used an expensive bottle of perfume to anoint Jesus’ feet instead of selling it and giving the money to the poor, it is in humility that we are most beautiful to God. not by the clothes and jewelry that we wear, or how we fix our hair, but a humble heart willing to give everything to Him.
sorry, i’m two days behind in my reading!
I am surprised that no one is concerned that he is saying in 1Tim 2:15 that women are saved in childbirth. That word means bearing a child. That word saved is the same word used in Act 3:12 “for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”
In a commentary by pastor Dave Guzik, he writes: “A better way to approach this passage is based on the grammar in the original Greek language. In the original, it says she will be saved in “the childbirth”. This has the sense, “Even though women were deceived, and fell into transgression starting with Eve, women can be saved by the Messiah – whom a woman brought into the world.”
Even though many women today and in history may feel the ongoing effects of the curse in the pains of childbirth and the lifelong wounds that it may leave, I urge all of our Christian sisters not to despair. God’s word to you is hope, not curse. God’s plan for you is salvation not destruction.
Yes, just as the man must work out his salvation through the cursed futilities and miseries of his labor (Genesis 3:18–19), millions of women must find her salvation through the pains and miseries of childbearing. The path of salvation is the same for her as for all the saints: “continuing in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.”
I got this from desiringgod.org and it helped me a bit.
I can see how I have been saved in childbirth. My life has completely transformed in motherhood. I am more patient and kind. I have more love in my heart and a greater ability for understanding and compassion. Maybe this is what it is referring to?
I highly recommend reading commentaries when trying to understand scripture that can be confusing and seem contradictory. David Guzik at http://www.enduringword.com does a great job at presenting context that makes it more clear what the intent was. this is what he says about the child-bearing portion…
a. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing: Many people regard this as one of the most difficult passages in the whole Bible. On the surface, it could be taken to mean that if a woman continues in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control, that God will bless her with survival in childbirth – which was no small promise in the ancient world.
i. Yet this interpretation leaves many difficult questions. Is this an absolute promise? What about godly women who have died in childbirth? What about sinful women who have survived childbirth? Doesn’t this seem like just a reward for good works, and not according to God’s grace and mercy?
b. Saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self control: Some approach this passage saying saved refers to gaining eternal life. Yet this interpretation is even more difficult. Are women saved eternally by giving birth to children – but only if they continue with godly virtues? What about women who can’t have children? Are they denied salvation?
c. She will be saved in childbearing: Some say that Paul “Has mostly in mind that child-bearing, not public teaching, is the peculiar function of woman, with a glory and dignity all its own.” (Robinson) The idea is that one should let the men teach in church and let the women have the babies.
d. She will be saved in childbearing: A better way to approach this passage is based on the grammar in the original Greek language. In the original, it says she will be saved in the childbirth. This has the sense, “Even though women were deceived, and fell into transgression starting with Eve, women can be saved by the Messiah – whom a woman brought into the world.”
i. Probably, the idea here is that even though the “woman race” did something bad in the garden by being deceived and falling into transgression, the “woman race” also did something far greater, in being used by God to bring the saving Messiah into the world.
ii. The summary is this: Don’t blame women for the fall of the human race; the Bible doesn’t. Instead, thank women for bringing the Messiah to us.
In reading the other comments, I think it is easy for us to interpret the Timothy passage from a very feminist viewpoint. That’s the way the world is today and how many of us have been influenced. I know I have been and my little feminist radar goes off when I read that passage but that is not how God intended it to be. He was not at all insulting the female sex so there is no reason for us to take it personally. Remember Gods original plan was for Adam to be the head over Eve. In our fallen world, that doesn’t always go so well bc men and women alike are not perfect. And though I may like to think I’m smarter and know better than my husband, God still calls me to be respectful and under his authority, but not in a demeaning way. So please, don’t get all riled up and hot under the collar over this passage. If you do, you’re entirely missing the point and Satan wins. Do you honestly think our loving generous God was out to insult you and make your life difficult as a woman?
1 Timothy 2:8-10 stuck out to me today, as I sit here in a dress with my hair in a braid, haha. (: I talked with my friend about this, and we saw that in this passage, Paul isn’t talking about what women shouldn’t do, but rather what they should do. He’s talking about how we present ourselves: not by how we look, but by our modesty, self-control, and good works.
Our character should be shown through our focus on being humble before God, not our focus on how we look. And likewise, he also talks about the character that men show in their habit too: being men of prayer, rather than arguing all the time. It shows God’s work in us, especially to the world around us.
Also, each of these small things he calls us to do are actions that lead to habits, which shape and reflect the posture of our hearts. So while lifting hands to God or doing good works is not enough in itself, it helps build a Christ-like attitude in our lives.
Jeremiah 14:14 is a good reminder that not everyone who claims to have a word from God really does. Compare any preacher’s message against Scripture to make sure it is accurate, don’t believe it just because it comes from a pulpit.
It doesn’t matter what we as women think about it, God said it!
We are just going to have to remember that men and women are equal in God’s sight, but with different roles in the Church. If God said women should be silent in the church meeting, then we are just going to have to go with what He said.
The Biblical Israelites have always annoyed me – they’re the chosen ones who seem to abuse this and God at every given opportunity. I find myself thinking ‘ugh, again’ when God has mercy on them. But then I think of myself and how unworthy I am of His forgiveness but that He always forgives and hears me. So although I might not want to admit it, I can be just like the Israelites – but God is still faithful.
Btw, I do not agree with like anything Timothy said about women. Thoughts?
I don’t think Timothy is as awful as you think. We should be modest, not drawing attention to ourselves by trying to make sure everyone around us can see all our attributes, if you know what I mean. God’s original design was that a woman would be man’s helpmeet – living and working alongside him. Women are not supposed to be teachers over men, but in our society we often allow and accept it because there are not always enough men stepping up to fulfill their own Biblical responsibilities. The world has a completely different viewpoint of what a woman’s role should be than what God outlined. Yes it’s different, but it’s not nearly as boring or restrictive as some people want you to see it. Not trying to live down to the world’s expectations can be pretty refreshing actually.
All scripture is inspired by God, so in reality you don’t like what God says in Paul’s letter to Timothy, which is understandable. We are prideful people. The world (society), Satan and our own flesh are always trying to convince us that our ways our better, or more palatable than God’s, but He is always right.
I think Paul’s point is to remind us of how God set up the family. God made man to be the head of the household, and, in turn, men should be the leaders of the church as well. Paul is not saying that women are to be silent in church the whole time, but that we have to recognize the role God made for us and it will not be the same as men’s.
Another thought on this passage is looking at it through the lens of the culture and time it was written. From that standpoint, Paul isn’t instruction all women everywhere and for all time to be silent in church, but rather he is addressing a specific, disruptive behavior pattern that was taking place in the church at the time (but can be interpreted to fit today’s culture in different ways). So many times, Paul is calling out specific groups for certain behaviors that aren’t necessarily supposed to be directly applied and taken literally for Christians living today, but his words are pointing out the underlying heart attitude, as other women have mentioned already. Just my thoughts.
A. Kate,
I agree! Basically we can still have nice clothes, jewelry, etc…just always focus on eternal things over worldly though. As you’ve stated it’s a heart issue. Also, Paul wasn’t saying women couldn’t be leaders. Reread Romans 16, Phoebe was a minister or in some translations Deaconess. He gave a shout out for other women as well!
Okay I didn’t explain myself – I understand my place as ‘Christian woman’ = a husband would be above me. I’m not disobeying God nor am I trying to. I think Kati understood what I meant. It was just confusing for me to read that I shouldn’t wear jewellery and such?
Grace, I think what that is saying isnt not to wear jewelry but to focus your attention on how you present yourself. He is saying that women should be modest and not worry about adorning themselves with gold, pearls and costly attire. Today it might sound like “women should worry about being humble in their attire and dressing within their means. Wear the target cardigan and dont worry about having a Chanel watch, coach purse and jimmy Choo shoes. So often we dress with ulterior motives- to impress others (men and women) or to attract men. These verses are saying that we should have our minds focused elsewhere. That was my take
Hi Grace! I don’t know why my response didn’t post from before but I’ll try it again… I don’t think the passage was saying to not wear jewelry but instead how to present ourselves. We are to be humble in our dress as opposed to flashy, extravagant styles. Basically, in how we might dress for others. Braids back in the day weren’t necessarily the simple ones we do today. One look at medieval hairstyles will have you cringe! ;) but I think the modern day take might look something like this “Dress humbly and within your means. Do not dress to entice or impress others. Do not worry about name brands. Your concerns should not be about the name on your shoes, purse and jewelry but on the name written upon your heart.” That was my take.
Hi Kristen, thanks so much! I totally get it with your explanation xx
I think the jewelry comment was more specific to the time period and culture, but the principle behind it still applies to us today. My Bible’s study notes for verse 9 say, “Not a total ban on the wearing of jewelry or braided hair. Rather, Paul was expressing caution in a society where such things were signs of extravagant luxury and proud personal display.” It’s like the Biblical version of keeping up with the Jones’. We have to remember that the point of gathering together at church services is for worship not showing off with the things we have or the way we look. There is nothing wrong with wearing jewelry or having our hair styled nicely. It’s our motives that matter. If these things become a source of pride then we should do a heart and soul check to get back on the right track focused on God. :-)
Hi Pam, thanks a lot for explaining :)
i like v.10 better in the message version: “doing something beautiful for God and becoming beautiful doing it.” like mary of bethany, who used an expensive bottle of perfume to anoint Jesus’ feet instead of selling it and giving the money to the poor, it is in humility that we are most beautiful to God. not by the clothes and jewelry that we wear, or how we fix our hair, but a humble heart willing to give everything to Him.
sorry, i’m two days behind in my reading!
I am surprised that no one is concerned that he is saying in 1Tim 2:15 that women are saved in childbirth. That word means bearing a child. That word saved is the same word used in Act 3:12 “for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”
In a commentary by pastor Dave Guzik, he writes: “A better way to approach this passage is based on the grammar in the original Greek language. In the original, it says she will be saved in “the childbirth”. This has the sense, “Even though women were deceived, and fell into transgression starting with Eve, women can be saved by the Messiah – whom a woman brought into the world.”
Even though many women today and in history may feel the ongoing effects of the curse in the pains of childbirth and the lifelong wounds that it may leave, I urge all of our Christian sisters not to despair. God’s word to you is hope, not curse. God’s plan for you is salvation not destruction.
Yes, just as the man must work out his salvation through the cursed futilities and miseries of his labor (Genesis 3:18–19), millions of women must find her salvation through the pains and miseries of childbearing. The path of salvation is the same for her as for all the saints: “continuing in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.”
I got this from desiringgod.org and it helped me a bit.
I can see how I have been saved in childbirth. My life has completely transformed in motherhood. I am more patient and kind. I have more love in my heart and a greater ability for understanding and compassion. Maybe this is what it is referring to?
I highly recommend reading commentaries when trying to understand scripture that can be confusing and seem contradictory. David Guzik at http://www.enduringword.com does a great job at presenting context that makes it more clear what the intent was. this is what he says about the child-bearing portion…
a. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing: Many people regard this as one of the most difficult passages in the whole Bible. On the surface, it could be taken to mean that if a woman continues in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control, that God will bless her with survival in childbirth – which was no small promise in the ancient world.
i. Yet this interpretation leaves many difficult questions. Is this an absolute promise? What about godly women who have died in childbirth? What about sinful women who have survived childbirth? Doesn’t this seem like just a reward for good works, and not according to God’s grace and mercy?
b. Saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self control: Some approach this passage saying saved refers to gaining eternal life. Yet this interpretation is even more difficult. Are women saved eternally by giving birth to children – but only if they continue with godly virtues? What about women who can’t have children? Are they denied salvation?
c. She will be saved in childbearing: Some say that Paul “Has mostly in mind that child-bearing, not public teaching, is the peculiar function of woman, with a glory and dignity all its own.” (Robinson) The idea is that one should let the men teach in church and let the women have the babies.
d. She will be saved in childbearing: A better way to approach this passage is based on the grammar in the original Greek language. In the original, it says she will be saved in the childbirth. This has the sense, “Even though women were deceived, and fell into transgression starting with Eve, women can be saved by the Messiah – whom a woman brought into the world.”
i. Probably, the idea here is that even though the “woman race” did something bad in the garden by being deceived and falling into transgression, the “woman race” also did something far greater, in being used by God to bring the saving Messiah into the world.
ii. The summary is this: Don’t blame women for the fall of the human race; the Bible doesn’t. Instead, thank women for bringing the Messiah to us.
In reading the other comments, I think it is easy for us to interpret the Timothy passage from a very feminist viewpoint. That’s the way the world is today and how many of us have been influenced. I know I have been and my little feminist radar goes off when I read that passage but that is not how God intended it to be. He was not at all insulting the female sex so there is no reason for us to take it personally. Remember Gods original plan was for Adam to be the head over Eve. In our fallen world, that doesn’t always go so well bc men and women alike are not perfect. And though I may like to think I’m smarter and know better than my husband, God still calls me to be respectful and under his authority, but not in a demeaning way. So please, don’t get all riled up and hot under the collar over this passage. If you do, you’re entirely missing the point and Satan wins. Do you honestly think our loving generous God was out to insult you and make your life difficult as a woman?
1 Timothy 2:8-10 stuck out to me today, as I sit here in a dress with my hair in a braid, haha. (: I talked with my friend about this, and we saw that in this passage, Paul isn’t talking about what women shouldn’t do, but rather what they should do. He’s talking about how we present ourselves: not by how we look, but by our modesty, self-control, and good works.
Our character should be shown through our focus on being humble before God, not our focus on how we look. And likewise, he also talks about the character that men show in their habit too: being men of prayer, rather than arguing all the time. It shows God’s work in us, especially to the world around us.
Also, each of these small things he calls us to do are actions that lead to habits, which shape and reflect the posture of our hearts. So while lifting hands to God or doing good works is not enough in itself, it helps build a Christ-like attitude in our lives.
Jeremiah 14:14 is a good reminder that not everyone who claims to have a word from God really does. Compare any preacher’s message against Scripture to make sure it is accurate, don’t believe it just because it comes from a pulpit.
It doesn’t matter what we as women think about it, God said it!
We are just going to have to remember that men and women are equal in God’s sight, but with different roles in the Church. If God said women should be silent in the church meeting, then we are just going to have to go with what He said.
I think you have it right, it’s a matter of roles, not superiority of males over females.
The Biblical Israelites have always annoyed me – they’re the chosen ones who seem to abuse this and God at every given opportunity. I find myself thinking ‘ugh, again’ when God has mercy on them. But then I think of myself and how unworthy I am of His forgiveness but that He always forgives and hears me. So although I might not want to admit it, I can be just like the Israelites – but God is still faithful.
Btw, I do not agree with like anything Timothy said about women. Thoughts?
Totally needing to pull out my study bible for the end of that one!
I don’t think Timothy is as awful as you think. We should be modest, not drawing attention to ourselves by trying to make sure everyone around us can see all our attributes, if you know what I mean. God’s original design was that a woman would be man’s helpmeet – living and working alongside him. Women are not supposed to be teachers over men, but in our society we often allow and accept it because there are not always enough men stepping up to fulfill their own Biblical responsibilities. The world has a completely different viewpoint of what a woman’s role should be than what God outlined. Yes it’s different, but it’s not nearly as boring or restrictive as some people want you to see it. Not trying to live down to the world’s expectations can be pretty refreshing actually.
All scripture is inspired by God, so in reality you don’t like what God says in Paul’s letter to Timothy, which is understandable. We are prideful people. The world (society), Satan and our own flesh are always trying to convince us that our ways our better, or more palatable than God’s, but He is always right.
I think Paul’s point is to remind us of how God set up the family. God made man to be the head of the household, and, in turn, men should be the leaders of the church as well. Paul is not saying that women are to be silent in church the whole time, but that we have to recognize the role God made for us and it will not be the same as men’s.
a great commentary to check out on this scripture…
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/5402.htm